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Khelos

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re: Raid loot systems (DKP, EP/GP...)

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Shock of shocks - a fairly in-depth (given it's length) article and interesting comments on raid looting systems off of WoWInsider:
http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/10/04/suvegas-dkp/

EP/GP:
http://code.google.com/p/epgp/wiki/WhatIsEPGP_v2
http://exquisitepain.dkpsystem.com/dynpage.php?id=36

...I thought I'd drop in our Forums as something to refer to if we ever need it (i.e. 25-man content via a guild alliance later this year).


Last edited by Khelos on 11/10/2007 12:34; edited 1 time in total


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Sathyra



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re: Raid loot systems (DKP, EP/GP...)

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hehe i didnt understand the EPGP, anyway...i think we should focus on a system that values attendance but also helps not hoarding points.

because i feel there must be a way to get ppl to attend to 25 man. cause if we leave it like we do with kara, we will probably have problems to do 25 man with consistency. cause getting 10 ppl together is ok, 25 not that easy.

also i think the system should benefit ppl who play more just because those r the ones we count on to get raids going. although i dont think it should punish ppl for not attending or so. RL sucks.

how do u think of all those? EpGP? DKP?
can any of u help me understand them? im totally clueless to math. so i need to understand the advantages and disadvantages without having to look at numbers.

sorry for the trouble.
cheers
sath
Sceilence



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re: Raid loot systems (DKP, EP/GP...)

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Also working on this, and will try to have something posted by this evening.


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Khelos

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re: Raid loot systems (DKP, EP/GP...)

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Decision time.

After running with EPGP this past week, and several conversations with members and Officers around it's mechanics, I'm heavily in favor of scrapping it. My reasons are as follows: regardless of EPGP's automation, it's still bloody complicated, and hence open to both confusion and misapplication (e.g. I don't start the Recurring EP timer at the beginning of a raid). Also, it's yet another system that polices member behavior via loot, which is a questionable ethic in a guild like ours. Lastly, EPGP, by virtue of awarding EP for certain unique circumstances (farming mats, one-shotting bosses, progression content versus farm), only increases it's complexity.

Therefore, unless there are strenuous objections, I'm looking for approval to move to a Suicide Kings system for 25-man content, with a few modifications, as follows:

1. We seed the system by length of membership in the guild. Those of us who formed this guild in the late summer of last year will occupy the top slots, and we'll order those by random roll.
2. Minimum attendance to be eligible for a drop is 3 of the last 6 guild raids (Karazhan, ZA, Gruul's, etc.). Being on Standby counts as attendance, unless the person logs out before the raid is completed.
3. Mains will ALWAYS have priority over alts, unless the alt has been specifically requested to attend by the Raid Leader to achieve proper raid composition.
4. There will be TWO lists: the raid list for multi-purpose drops (Tier tokens are obvious examples), and class lists for class-specific drops.
5. New members will be placed at the bottom of the list, and can only move up after completing the attendance requirements.

A good working explanation can be found here, and I'd like to use it for our formal post to the members this week, given approval.

Thoughts?

Thanks.


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nigligent

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re: Raid loot systems (DKP, EP/GP...)

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/signed.


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Sceilence



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I don't care. Getting rid of EP/GP doesn't hurt my feelings in any way other than the fact that you've worked this hard on it and now we're tossing it. If you're OK with that, I'm OK with that.

But personally, I'm really apathetic about the whole subject.


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Gallroth



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re: Raid loot systems (DKP, EP/GP...)

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Bend to my will!...Soon all will be mine!...True power!...You can't stop me, you can only hope to contain me!...

But seriously, I think any loot system is just that, a loot system. I don't think the loot system we use should also be used to enforce raid attendance, and other various guild rules. Suicide kings is very simple and easy to keep track of...you've got my vote for it. I would like to remove the forcing 3 of the last 6 raids to be eligible for loot...seems to me this goes against the basic idea of the "casual raiding guild"...And just because I can't leave without at least one question...Does every player have a spot on the list or does every toon have a spot on the list? Speaking directly about alt's and players availability to make multiple raid nights with different toons. I would like to see the list made up of players and not toons, just to make you think long and hard about what toon you actually want to raid with. The more toons you raid with, the more time you will spend on the bottom of the list. This would eliminate the whole "alt" issue...Just a thought

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Sathyra



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i still didnt get the 2 lists.
like one for all the multipurpose drops? and one for each class specific drops? so like the same list for all 25man multipurpose drops and another for class specific?

we start the list using the time when ppl got in the guild, and ppl that entered at the same time, roll and we put them into a order based on that, right?

i think something like that could be used for ZA, cause ZA at the moment is progression raid, like a separate list just for ZA, while leaving Kara the way it is cause it´s farming mode. Cause id like to see the drops in Za having a rotation, that would benefit the choice on group composition, cause we could choose to take to the raid different ppl from the same class each time. ex: one week we take riel, another sile, another antarissar, and so on.. if taking just one hunter, or else if taking 2. mind just the needs of the dungeon for each boss, so forth. the system would just be a way to be fair on the loot distribution, since loot in Za is very interesting and appealing at the moment, and sometimes rollling on loot just benefits the luckiest of the moment. ( that´s very unfair on long term situation and loot that could benefit the whole guild)

back to 25 man, how is that work on ppl not attend the raids? does the person stuck at the position he is? how many times the person needs to miss the raid to get stuck?

and r we using the rule that on progression raids if u dont have all consumables u dont get to roll on loot?

some questions, some ideas and doubts, lets solve it and get the 25 man loot system going.
cheers
sathyra
Sathyra



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re: Raid loot systems (DKP, EP/GP...)

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i dont agree on removing the 3 out of 6 raids from the loot system, yes we r casual, so we can amplify that number to fit that, but im not finding it funny to have ppl that never show up, do and take an item from time to time.

im sorry but on attendance we should have a more strict policy, we all know RL happens, but some cases should benefit the ones that show up ( at least in a fairly normal window) cause they are the ones we r counting on to play with.
also it's a way for we to keep ppl knowing that they have to show up, and that even though they can have issues on showing up from time to time, if u miss every single raid for 1 month, u will have to endure showing up for a little more later to compensate before u get phat loot.

sath
Khelos

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Ok, good feedback. I've bounced this off of four guild members so far (Testdummy, Annieoakley, Tayghan and Rielwyntar), and not only did they all get it nearly immediately, but their "top of mind" questions were about mains vs. alts and attendance.

Therefore, what I am proposing is as follows:

1. Only mains on the list. Again, if an alt is asked to come in for the benefit of the raid, that alt can take the spot of that player's existing main for a drop.

2. Attendance *DOES* matter to people. As an example, if Tristal ever comes back, should he be allowed to jump in and take a Tier 4 drop, and then disappear again for months? This was a big concern to those people with whom I've discussed this system. What is our consensus for this requirement? Remember, 3 of 6 means you only need to be online for 1 Karazhan, 1 Zul'aman and 1 Gruul's raid over a two week period. Is that too much to ask of people?

3. To your question Sathyra, there are a few drops in the game that are class-specific, and most guild handle these via a separately maintained class list. So, one list for your class and another, main raid list for drops that multiple classes can use as Primary items.

4. As for Zul'Aman, I'm undecided on a separate raid list. I know that some guilds are doing it, and I can't think of any negatives in implementing it for ZA. However, I'm very open to other opinions - thoughts?

Thanks all - we're very close!


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Sceilence



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My negativity towards ZA continues to grow.

If we have a 3/6 requirement and ZA is a consideration, that means that I have to go to 3/4 of the raids that I *will* do. Awefully close to mandating 75% attendance from my perspective.

There are many people in the guild who do not have the gear/skill level to be doing ZA (or Gruul, though we can work with that in 25-man capacity). Does this mean that they have to consistently sign up for ZA and be told, "No, you can't come because you're not geared". That's kind of demoralizing to them.

I am also of the opinion that our Kara efforts need to be more focused on getting the people who are not as well geared through the instance in one night. This means taking more of the people who can put out the numbers we need so that a few (2 or 3) can get upgraded to the teeth. Maybe we rotate who those 2 or 3 are each week, I don't know. I do know that I'm growing more resistant to taking alts into the zone because people have mains who need that stuff.


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Khelos

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Fair enough, good point regarding ZA. I guess I was considering that we have four scheduled raids per week, and having folks be online for half of those events per week wouldn't be overly burdensome. If the consensus is to lessen it, I'm fine with it. To be clear, I'm trying to avoid the issue with someone who is casual coming into a raid and obtaining a drop that would be far more helpful to the guild if it went to an active player.

So, if anyone has a different way of solving this problem, I'm open to it.

As for Karazhan, I simply assumed that mains would *always* have priority for invites.

On an associated topic, Dorotar presents an interesting problem, in that he is willing to continue playing his current main (Dorotar), but has been abundantly clear that he is going to switch over to Epans. Obviously Epans needs Kara drops, but he continues to take drops on Dorotar. How do we want to handle this?


Last edited by Khelos on 02/14/2008 13:36; edited 1 time in total


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Sceilence



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I think our rules state that our raid force gets priority over the non-raid folks. If someone is labeled as a casual player, that's a settled deal - they don't get to roll over a raiding toon for the big stuff.

As for Dorotar, I see it like this. He declares that Epans is his main. Epans is not geared for 25-man content. Epans is allowed to go to Karazhan to get his drops, but is not allowed to go to 25-man. Until he is able to do 25-man content with the shaman (i.e., his gear surpasses Dorotar's and he qualifies as one of the top DPS in any given raid), he will be required to bring Dorotar as a healer for that content. This will basically leave the decision up to him - if he takes a drop on Dorotar in 10-man or 25-man content, that's one more piece that puts him behind in the shaman's ability to take over as his only raiding toon. Furthermore, until such time as the Shaman is adequately geared, he is considered a tagalong for Karazhan - meaning he's taking up one of the 3 slots not occupied by a seasoned toon.

I just looked at his armory, and that toon has a *long* way to go before I would take him out of the Tagalong category for Karazhan. He's only got 1k AP, 18% crit, and 62 hit/5 expertise. I could be wrong, but if Enhance Shamans are anything like Warriors or Rogues, his AP needs to be in the 1500 - 2000 range. Crit needs to be 25%. Hit needs to be at least double what it is, if not more. I'm not even sure that he fills the bill for entering Kara with his current gear.


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Khelos

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Ok, we'll have an opportunity to see his performance on Epans this Friday. The reality is we actually would like an enhancement shaman for our 25-man content for the melee dps group, and if this isn't Doro, I'd like to obtain one from somewhere.

We still don't have a consensus on attendance policy, and how/when a player can expect to qualify for insertion onto the SK list. I will speak to each Officer individually and drive this to completion myself.

Also, one issue was raised last night by Riel regarding the awarding of Nether Vortexes, along with crafting patterns. Loot council? I can develop another list for crafters for both patterns and Nether Vortexes as well...


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Khelos

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Sturm und Drang...

After all this, I realized (after a very enlightening conversation with Qrsu) that I could modify EPGP to capture the better elements of Suicide Kings (simplicity and equitability) and retain's EPGP gear valuation and specific raid behavior awards.

Here's the system that we're going to use:

EPGP is based on the concept of Effort Points and Gear Points. Effort Points quantify the effort each member put towards the (common) guild goals and Gear Points quantify what each member got back in return. Loot priority is computed as the quotient of the two; priority (PR) is equal to EP/GP.

In a sense EPGP is like zero sum, but without all the need to rebalance the system, or impose taxes to give points for other effort put into the guild. Zero sum awards GP/N points to each player for each item dropped (GP the value of the item and N the number of players in the raid) so that the sum of all points for the members of the guild is zero. EPGP on the other hand is by definition self balanced since priority (and hence chance to receive loot) is directly proportional to the effort you put and inversely proportional to the rewards you got. It is also much more flexible than zero sum since it doesn't require a specific balance point (sum to be equal to zero for example). As such points can be awarded for almost anything without any taxation or over complicating the system (see below). Also another problem with zero sum is the random value of each boss. A boss kill is a boss kill and the effort to kill it is the same no matter if it happened to drop 1 or 2 epics. With zero sum since the amount of effort points the members get is proportional to the loot dropped which is definitely not representing fairly the effort each member puts in the guild.

EP Table:
Recurring EP = 25 EP/15 mins
Attendance Award = 100 EP (online 30 min prior to raid)
Consumables check = 100 EP
Boss Kill = 200 EP
Final Boss Kill = 300 EP
Guild First Boss Kill = Boss Kill + 100 EP
Progression Wipes on Boss = 200 EP (Meaning, if we wipe constantly all night on a new boss. 200 points are awarded for sticking it out)

Decay = 10%
EP and GP depreciate at a weekly 10% rate. Since both values are reduced by the same percentage, PR is unaffected. This effectively deals with any "EP hoarding".

Miscellaneous
- All other EP awards will come from an Officer-sanctioned "event" (e.g. we decide to hand out 2000 EP per resist set).

- If you are online, you get EP - the same amount if you're in the raid or on Standby. The only requirement is that your Main is eligible for our 25-man content. Only players who are offline will not receive EP.

- Players are listed on EPGP and are required to take their Main to all raids. If an alt is required for a specific raid, the alt can use their PR to obtain a drop.

- Raid members are required to have a minimum of 2 raids and at least 2000 EP before they can request items. If no one is interested in an item then it may go to someone with less EP in lieu of being disenchanted.

- Bind-on-Equip tradeskill patterns are equal to the GP value of the item they produce and are non-negotiable.

- Off-spec items cost 10% of their normal GP.

- A [Nether Vortex] is 25 GP each. Priority for Nether Vortexes will be given to those crafters who have learned patterns in which they are used. Members may bid on Nether Vortexes by proxy; the PR of the bidders will determine the winner and the winning bidder incurs the GP cost while the Nether Vortex in question goes to the crafter of their choosing. Once a member has received one or more Nether Vortex, that member automatically receives all subsequent Nether Vortex necessary to complete the crafting of their item. If two or more members have received a Nether Vortex, priority is given to the one who can complete the crafting of their item first, otherwise to the one who received one first.

(thanks to Team X-Calibre guild, Gurubashi server for some info contained herein)


Last edited by Khelos on 02/15/2008 16:46; edited 1 time in total


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